"But he was also an Atheist, just like we are. The quote reflects that fact. "

If course he was, and it does. I should have stated it more clearly that I used that quote to indicate that HIS definition of a "god" was the only one he, I, Einstein, Spinoza and most of us would would accept. I did not mean to imply that Carl believed in anything supernatural. incidentally, I met Carl in the 80's, and got to talk with him a bit. Damn right he was an atheist!

I'd just like to say how cool it is that you met Carl Sagan. He was a personal hero before I knew what acne was, before I knew his spaceship in Cosmos was fake (I bought that soundtrack on Vinyl when I was nine.. is that sad? don't care...)

He explained us the wonder of the universe and the simplest things on earth, and made it very clear that religion, any non-rational belief, was just plain wrong ... and harmful.

I respect the Unitarian position of "humanist values" BUT you cannot be a true humanist without a rational premise that, whether someone caused the big bang or not, there is no supernatural influence on our lives.

Scientific rationality is our credo and our "faith", our reason for action, is in humanity, flawed or not.

A man or woman that does not see more awe in the deep vision of the Hubble than in a 2000 year old "prophet" is not looking or thinking deeply enough. I have a friend that looked at deep imaging and gave up prayer immediately. It is just that big.

It is a tremendous leap of humanity to say there is no supernatural. Humans crave something super-powerful (see Indian Jones movies), but accepting the non-existence of that is a leap all humanists make or, very frequently, find they have already made. It is not that our god is bigger than any god, simply that the universe (reality) is bigger than any god, and we have to grasp ourselves within it.. we are here, we are small, but hey we are here!

Give me no mumbo jumbo, the truth is far more exciting in every way. Look at the skies!

Thoughts?

An interesting article that touches on some of the ground mentioned as makes some interesting points about (in)tolerance. Many, if not most or all, of the accusations hurled at atheists are hurled equally, and often concurrently, at humanists...
We do and should have a strong association with atheism, something of which we should be proud, and must be ready to counter the frequent attacks against our viewpoints with the sword of reason and the armor of conviction.

http://www.smh.com.au...

Hi Ron and Pete and Han,
I have not been on the message board before but I have enjoyed following your discussion and just wanted to add my thoughts. I also am an athiest and a humanist but I mostly do not like describing myself as an atheist. That says what I do NOT believe and it is, of course, in reference to theists. I like better describing what I DO believe and "Humanist" does that very well for me without a reference to theists. I think it true that most Humanists are atheists but certainly the converse is not true - most atheists are humanists. I would love to see the Humanist movement disassociate from the "a" word as I see it as very negative - I know there are many non-believers who are not good or ethical people. I hate to see the two words used interchangeably.
Ellen